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Old June 22nd, 2015   #11
PaulRB
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

The bushings will have roughly zero effect on spring rate and dampening.
It will extend seal life, tighten up a wobbly fork.
It's just better all-around but the greatest benefit will be in fresh fluid.

I find fresh fluid to be a wonderful thing and the combination of fresh fluid and a new tire is simply marvelous.

I change my fluid every 12k. I really don't care if it needs it or not.


Paul
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Old June 26th, 2015   #12
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

It is all back together everything looks good forks seems very smooth though there stroke.

The ZX springs are about 3/4 longer I was concerned about the sag but it right on where needs to be.

I put 20 Oz of fork fluid in the tubes this what Sonic calling out for there same fork spring set up.

I take the bike for a ride when I get a chance in 2 or 3 days.
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Old June 26th, 2015   #13
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

They were worn that's why I replaced them if you in them do the job right.

This first set of fork bushing I seen worn like this I done my share of suspension rebuilds over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulRB View Post
The bushings will have roughly zero effect on spring rate and dampening.
It will extend seal life, tighten up a wobbly fork.
It's just better all-around but the greatest benefit will be in fresh fluid.

I find fresh fluid to be a wonderful thing and the combination of fresh fluid and a new tire is simply marvelous.

I change my fluid every 12k. I really don't care if it needs it or not.


Paul
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Old June 28th, 2015   #14
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Smile Re: Up Grading fork springs

Went for a couple short rides the Used upgraded fork springs are well worth the money with 20 Oz of fork oil.

I notice better road feel back through the bars less dive under braking the front tire feels more planted to the road.

But under hard acceleration through a turn the rear tire started to drift then again I was rolling over a painted line on the road the stock set up in the same turn never did this before.

Being a old over the hill racer just flow with it reminded me of the old days.
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Old July 18th, 2015   #15
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

Don't use ALL BALLS fork seals I put about 150 Miles on them and both sides are leaking.

I going to get a set of OEM Honda fork seals.

I read other that had issues with All Balls Fork seals.
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Last edited by marv02; July 19th, 2015 at 10:56 AM.
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Old July 19th, 2015   #16
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by marv02 View Post
Don't use ALL BALLS fork seals I put about 150 Miles on them and both sides are leaking.

I going to get a set of OEM Honda fork seals.

Mmmmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulRB View Post
Oil level on the stock setup is used to soften the blow just before the fork bottoms by using the air "gap" as a air shock. Shorting up the "gap" with a higher oil level will almost insure seal troubles


Paul

Just a thought, if you have put 'more spring' in there too will the oil level be a bit too high.
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Old July 19th, 2015   #17
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

"more spring" would need to be the physical size of the spring before it had any effect on oil level, not spring rate.
While more spring in the form of spring rate would deliver a larger wire diameter it would not get to the size to cause problems unless you were running a oil level close to the edge of overfull.

It has been some time since I have heard oil level referred to in ounces or volume of.
A distance measurement has become the defacto standard for fork oil.
For the stock setup, and aftermarket spring change for that matter, the Oz amount stated puts you in the ballpark for a distance measurement from oil level to the top of the tube. The stock setup uses the distance to set the "air gap", as does Sonic with their spring kit even though they no longer use the air gap as a "shock". Distance is a far more accurate measurement and ensures both tubes are the same and that makes the "air gap" the same.
I'm not sure I can tell you how much in ounces is in my tubes but I do know and record the oil level.
The correct spring weight pretty much negates the need for the air shock and the end of travel and now the oil level is used to ensure there is the proper amount to prevent cavitation and keep moving parts lubricated. You need to keep the cartridge in oil and the amount of oil over that is used to extend it's service life, fork/shock oil lives a life of hell and it's fairly brief.
You can get carried away. You can't compress the oil so excess oil will head to the nearest exit, the seal.

If you think a new set of tires feel good try a new tire with fresh fluid.
It's not that much work to change fork oil and with the newer generation of tire available and mileage now extending into five digit mileage a fork oil change with a new tire will deliver a ride and feel making the work well worth the effort.
A properly working fork can extend grip and mileage and can go a long way to help ward off cupping of the tire.
You've got to make the fork work properly before you can address a front tire problem.


The only way to set oil level in my opinion.
Make it of buy it you need one.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GZPCYI/...l_87lo9vjf5b_e

Paul

Last edited by PaulRB; July 19th, 2015 at 05:18 AM.
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Old July 19th, 2015   #18
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

Oil level is an important factor in suspension tuning as it directly affects the last one third or so of fork travel independent of damping and spring rate. Air gap can effectively change spring rate in the last part of compression.

Air is essentially incompressible in this context so too high of a oil level or 'too little air' causes the spring rate to sharply rise at the end of travel. The spring rate becomes very progressive. This is important if the tuner desires a relatively plush ride on relatively soft springs that would otherwise bottom out under heavy braking or when striking a very hard bump.

Tuning guides still include addressing oil levels by recording maximum fork travel under heavy braking. If the spring rate is good as measured by differences in rider and free sag and general behavior yet less than 10mm of travel remains after heavy threshold braking then raise the oil level some. The higher level will not affect fork behavior in the first 2/3rds to 3/4th of travel but it will give a stiffer response at the very end of travel that can prevent bottoming under duress.
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Old July 19th, 2015   #19
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

While all that is certainly true we are dealing with a fork that has 4.25 inches of travel. Giving up about over a inch with sag we end up with little travel and not near enough to compress the air gap to anything resembling a effective spring unless the oil level is high enough that the air gap is in effect simply assembling the fork.
It may work to lessen the blow through the handlebars driving it into a pothole but as far as riding it down the expressway we are much better off with the proper spring at the rate for your weight and style and not relying on a air space with little air in it.
In stock trim the air gap 2.4 inch. Air within the spring until it coil binds is of questionable amount but even if it's all air it ends up being even more progressive that the windings on the spring.

If we had motocross numbers of fork travel the air gap would come into play and oil levels would be much more critical.
The CRF450R does use the air gap as a tunable portion of fork setup.
Nothing new fully air suspended dirt bikes were all the rage of the 70's but they were plagued with short wheel travel numbers. If you set them up for the landing off the jump they were to stiff to get them to turn.
The CRF is dealing with 12 inches of travel to compress the air.

Short wheel travel does not favor the effectiveness of air suspension.
You give up to much movement until the air compress enough to become spring like.
That is where the ST starts from.


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Old July 19th, 2015   #20
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Default Re: Up Grading fork springs

It's a given that proper spring rate and preload are chosen......oil level cannot not make up for a spring that is too soft or too hard. Oil level is a tool to fine tune the fork but it does go hand in hand with spring selection. There is a reason the stock .876 kg/mm springs have a relatively high oil level of 62 mm while stiffer aftermarket springs from 1.0 to 1.3 kg/mm have much lower oil rates of 120-130 mm. Pick up a street bike suspension tuning guide to learn more or look here: https://www.ohlins.eu/en/motorcycle/...preload--3554/

Pull it up then download one of the PDF files for road fork setup then go to oil level adjustments.

Respectfully, that's mumbo jumbo about MX and motocross bikes making use of air gap but street bikes and the ST do not or cannot. Street bikes from easy-does-it-touring to the highest levels of performance have 4 to 5" of travel and oil level is very important. The Ohlin TTX forks in superbikes and in MotoGP have less than 5" of travel, 4.72" to be exact.
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